Map Handling

[TJ1524]

Honestly, I don't like the way maps are being added or removed.

Removing:
Polls aren't very helpful. Polls allow for anyone to vote without thinking why they want the map removed, but "might as well remove it because we've seen/played it so much". Just go look at the first wave and 90% of the map choices are for removing them, however the reasons are really bad to the point of exaggeration. "This map has a green tint to it like the green poop that it is". What does that have to do with the performance of the map? The maps decent, causes no problems and looks like it was just targeted because he didn't like it. Some maps people were saying "but they delay because they don't know where to go", but that's the thing...you have to play the map multiple times to understand how to navigate it? You don't just instantly memorize it. After playing it once, I could get around pretty well and knew where majority of the people were going to be.

I think that each map should get it's own thread for removing and should be treated like member applications where they have to give actual reasons why it should be removed. Just because you don't like hallway maps, that doesn't mean many other people don't like it.

I agree immediately if frame drops are immediately noticeable like concentration camp, but for maps that have clever design like slender_descent, that really was never a problem. The flooding part wasn't used all too often and was easily avoidable. It looks like we'll run out of maps before we add more to match.

Adding:
I was really looking forward to de_deathcookin at least on the server a few times before it being removed. It got denied because "big map". We have plenty of big maps and have the mobility items to get to many places on big maps. Especially with traitor and detective items.
Canvas also got denied, but that's even a call of duty map and those are in high demand because they're exactly the type of maps that TTT looks for.

It just sucks that maps are being removed or declined because of "empty rooms", "nothing to do", "hallways". There's nothing wrong with this when there's a theme to the map. One instance is dungeon revamp that dogboy suggested. It's suppose to be a dark castle themed map. It has things to do but I don't think jake actually looked into it because I personally played that map and there's an objective and secrets to it. But that was a while ago so I won't really count it against him.

I asked parade if he had anything to do with terror train being declined and he said no, so jake handled that one and he already said he disliked it, so I figured he probably was probably biased towards removing it in the first place.



We talked about a newer version in discord, but nothing was really done/looked at and I feel like that's a shame. I feel like If I were to suggest the updated version, it would most likely get declined for the same reasons.

Regardless of my bias with deathcookin, the new maps seem to be added randomly and even then, some get removed instantly. Like, what was the point of adding it and then removing it instantly without playing it for a little more than one time.

I also think that "add map" threads should also work like member applications to give people's opinions and maybe some people download the map to see if it's buggy and if there's problems with how our items might interact with it to give a better opinion.

[2bias]

not to mention youre using strawpoll which can be easily abused to vote more than once, with 0 way to verify people voting only once.

[Unpoke]

You guys are so harsh on anyone who volunteers to take on any responsibilities...

If you think a map should be kept because it functions well despite it not looking good or being fun, use your vote that way, but if it turns out you’re in the minority and the majority of the server would rather it be removed because they don’t like it then thats their votes that outweighs yours.
A lot of maps are being removed/added rn because they’ve been unregulated for a while, I’m sure it’ll slow down, and I think it’s pretty unfair to accuse him of only choosing maps he dislikes. I don’t even think that matters considering despite given the trust to regulate maps himself there was a vote provided.

Also TJ you just made an entire argument off assumptions that if you made a thread to add a map and it followed the same voting system that it would get declined outta bias? I haven’t seen anyone try it, why not give it a shot? There’s a whole map suggesting subforum and you’re able to put a poll and people can respond with their reasons, doesnt sound too far off a member application minus the format.

[TJ1524]

(04-27-2019, 06:06 AM)Unpoke Wrote:  A lot of maps are being removed/added rn because they’ve been unregulated for a while, I’m sure it’ll slow down, and I think it’s pretty unfair to accuse him of only choosing maps he dislikes. I don’t even think that matters considering despite given the trust to regulate maps himself there was a vote provided.

Also TJ you just made an entire argument off assumptions that if you made a thread to add a map and it followed the same voting system that it would get declined outta bias? I haven’t seen anyone try it, why not give it a shot? There’s a whole map suggesting subforum and you’re able to put a poll and people can respond with their reasons, doesnt sound too far off a member application minus the format.

I mean, I'm just annoyed that maps that had no reason to go other than "some of server is tired of it" so it must be removed for good. Not only that, but people were VOTING FOR THESE MAPS when they came up when they could've obviously picked one of the other seven choices. I just don't get it why vote for something you dislike? I feel like the person who voted obviously disliked majority of the maps already on the server because we play them so often. I bet if you put many of the maps we have they would all get put at least above 50% to remove. It didn't help that Jake was basically spamming to vote all around and not in game, where the people who actually play would see it.

I made an argument off of the fact that we didn't even try terror train, and most people wanted to see it added...which brings me back to what you said: Majority of the people who posted on that wanted the map to be added. We basically voted on it using posts to the thread and +7 for adding, -2 against adding, +1 neutral, +2 informative. That's basically 70% for adding it, and it still got declined. Not only that, but we never even saw if it was good for our server or not. We literally used an application based map thing and it didn't pass even with majority wanting it.



Isn't this the majority of the people who care about the map?

[The Black Parade]

I posted on yours because you pretty summed up everything I thought as well.

(04-27-2019, 05:21 AM)TJ1524 Wrote:  Honestly, I don't like the way maps are being added or removed.

Removing:
Polls aren't very helpful. Polls allow for anyone to vote without thinking why they want the map removed, but "might as well remove it because we've seen/played it so much". Just go look at the first wave and 90% of the map choices are for removing them, however the reasons are really bad to the point of exaggeration. "This map has a green tint to it like the green poop that it is". What does that have to do with the performance of the map? The maps decent, causes no problems and looks like it was just targeted because he didn't like it. Some maps people were saying "but they delay because they don't know where to go", but that's the thing...you have to play the map multiple times to understand how to navigate it? You don't just instantly memorize it. After playing it once, I could get around pretty well and knew where majority of the people were going to be.

I think that each map should get it's own thread for removing and should be treated like member applications where they have to give actual reasons why it should be removed. Just because you don't like hallway maps, that doesn't mean many other people don't like it.

I agree immediately if frame drops are immediately noticeable like concentration camp, but for maps that have clever design like slender_descent, that really was never a problem. The flooding part wasn't used all too often and was easily avoidable. It looks like we'll run out of maps before we add more to match.

When I saw the wave 1 thread, I knew it was eventually going to be controversial, sense it's mostly just +1s and -1s.
Everyone has their own opinions on maps, but some of the reasons to remove are little light but thats his reasoning, your vote is your opinion.
The system can definitely be reworked. In his last wave thread he talked about removing maps that only the community comments about, which I think is a great idea. the template application type things is also a good idea, but it takes effort to make a valuable thread on it, most wont do that.

Quote:Adding:
I was really looking forward to de_deathcookin at least on the server a few times before it being removed. It got denied because "big map". We have plenty of big maps and have the mobility items to get to many places on big maps. Especially with traitor and detective items.
Canvas also got denied, but that's even a call of duty map and those are in high demand because they're exactly the type of maps that TTT looks for.

It just sucks that maps are being removed or declined because of "empty rooms", "nothing to do", "hallways". There's nothing wrong with this when there's a theme to the map. One instance is dungeon revamp that dogboy suggested. It's suppose to be a dark castle themed map. It has things to do but I don't think jake actually looked into it because I personally played that map and there's an objective and secrets to it. But that was a while ago so I won't really count it against him.

I didn't really look at any of the map submissions or gave my thoughts, but a lot of the maps were declined (i didnt read all of the reasons). In my opinion, I think most maps should be tested if the map is optimized, and then sent to the server to see what people think about it. Maps can always get removed if people complain about it, it's never written in stone.

[2bias]

If anything, i feel like maps that dont have any actual gameplay issues(fps, broken areas, etc) should only be removed if the vote is 60/40 or above.

If you want to get a map removed that you don't like, that's fine, but there should at least be an overwhelming amount of support to remove it(like lasertag)

Also its my fault that construct wasn't removed, not jake or black parade. i asked in discord for it not to be removed for the time being as i want to find a new map to put its challenge on.

[Beebee1303]

I was using it more as an example, hard to think of those when 10 folks are crammed in a discord like sardines. I just went for a cheap shot.

I could have said lockdown or that space station map that contently have low fps when a lot of folks are on.

[Deadheala .(Josh).]

I'd say jake and parade are doing a great job. Just might need to slow down on map removal till a majority of people get there opinions out. We can start with a strawpoll and if the vote isn't majority we can then put it for discussion on the forums. Afterwards make a post letting people know the map will be deleted in 48hrs if there are no further complaints. But like I said thank you jake and parade for what you guys do and lets hope a solution is found

[Brassx]

It's pretty odd that you guys want a membership format for every single map that may need to be removed, what do those get, 6, 7 replies now??

People are freaking lazy, ESPECIALLY ON THE FORUMS, no one would want to go through 20+ maps and post +1/-1 with a valid reasoning on why the map should be removed. However, wanting a map removed because you dislike it is PLENTY valid, and it's a little dumb if you think that's not a fair logical choice. A map can have no performance issues, or technical issues in general, and just be a bad map to play on. You don't need anymore reason than you hating it for your vote to remove to be valid to me. But just imagine, 17 separate threads for each map requiring everyone to post +1/-1 and a lengthy sentence on why it should stay or be removed.. Yeahh. a bit unrealistic there.

Why should we keep a map that most people don't like?? we shouldn't. Jake may have put maps he thought were bad up on the chopping block first, but what's the problem with that? He had to start with some maps, and these are maps he thought were NOT good for the server, thus being a good place to start cleaning up the map pool. It was all left to a community vote.

It was a little questionable that he removed the one that has 1 extra vote, instead of making a separate thread on it for some form of deeper discussion, but regardless, I think the decision was ok, and it was HIS to make.He had to pick a side, either remove it or keep it, and he made his choice with the majority that did vote, even if it were only by 1 vote. It's not like the map can't ever be re-added if people want it. I have no doubts he will better the process as time goes on as well. Jake explained everything in his post.

TJ even on your example there, look how many votes that got compared to the strawpolls lol. Yes you can revote on strawpoll if you change your IP address, but that's more work than the payoff is worth. You vote for no, oh boy a map gets to be removed for now. You vote no, oh boy the map gets to stay for now. Totally worth all that effort... not. Though a poll on the forums would be nice, but again we tried that and people complained it was 'too aids to vote'. Also did you seriously just cite a reply Jake made 2 years ago? he's only been handling maps for the past few days why does that even matter..?

[Jake1o]

Okay I'm very confused about the pictures you guys have posted of the previous strawpolls. When I removed lazertag it was 54% remove and 46% keep. If it were 51% to remove then I wouldn't have done it. That is too close. Also for slender decent it didn't have 146 votes when I handled it. I have no idea how it skyrocketed after the fact. I'm starting to question strawpoll at this point. I will say that I had originally done a forums poll but people complained so it was suggested that I do individual strawpolls instead.

This 100% is a personal attack because I'm the only one making these threads. It seems that a map you enjoyed got removed so you are crying like a baby about it. Brass removed dozens of maps that I loved and I sent him a message about it. He wouldn't listen to me and the maps have been gone forever. I didn't make a thread and call the way he handled maps poor or throw a fit.

You say I am targeting maps I don't like and not going after maps that have actual problems. I literally added any map that was mentioned in the comments section of the last thread. -.- gm_construct will never be removed because I have asked Brass 123344 times to remove it. I hate that map too. That is the only reason I overlooked micros complaint about it. Simply because I already know the results and it's a challenge scroll map. Maybe I actually know what I'm doing a little bit Beebee. Hard to believe right?

My reasoning for lazertag was obviously a meme. I had some meme reasonings on other maps as well. I wasn't actually taking that part too seriously. I try to have a little fun with the whole process once in a while. If you check the comments on the previous thread lazertag was mentioned as a bad map by others as well.

How about if you want to complain about the way something is done you offer an alternative that you think would be better? Then steps can be taken to improve said thing.

My bad. You did suggest another way. As many comments have mentioned, that way is worse than strawpolls though. I'll make a seperate thread for any maps that receive less than 60% for remove. However, now we have to watch out for little groups that don't want a map removed that might rig the votes to get just under 60%. Big yikes.