01-23-2019, 06:42 AM (This post was last modified: 01-23-2019, 06:56 AM by Brassx.)
I was thinking about how much you can get away with as a Traitor, and because of that a lot of T weapons are simply not utilized (Flaregun, decoy, etc).
I think we need a massive refactoring of some of our core rules (Kos off locations, sound, and other info).
Some rules I was thinking of refactoring/expanding upon is the Traitor baiting rule, and changing it into a "Committing Traitorous act = kosable" rule, as follows:
Committing traitorous acts makes you kosable (Obvious right?)
Traitorous acts could include(but not limited to):
Walking through/BLATANTLY avoiding bear traps.
Blatantly fleeing the scene of an UNID'd body, or ignoring unid'd bodies. For instance, if someone is fleeing a room and you see a body in there, but saw no call outs between the two, you should be safe to kill said person. It's on them for not calling out the other person if they happened to be Innocent. If they did call it out and you missed it and kill them, you could take a slay. (Decided at staff discretion if reported)
Shooting at or near someone. This does Not include OBVIOUSLY shooting at a wall or consensual testing of weapons by shooting in legs.
Exploding explosive barrels near someone.
Planting C4 or remote bombs.
Having T weapons without calling our you have one from a dead traitor. Even using one from a dead traitor is a risk you have to take as an innocent.
Damaging or killing others, UNLESS for self-defense. However, it's a little hard to prove if self defense. Any thoughts?
Another thing is logical rules:
Reasonable* logic should be allowed, that is, figuring out who a T is without directly seeing the actions they comitted. To be decided on a per-case basis. This includes but is not limited to:
Using information on bodies or other situations(to be expanded on later) to form a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt, that a person is a T.
This is hard to pinpoint as it can be very situational and vary VASTLY depending on the situation and context, but for example, if you ID a body and it shows they died only a few seconds ago, but you saw someone fleeing the scene with the same weapon(with no other ways to escape), just before you found/saw the body. You should be able to piece together and rightfully KOS the person fleeing the scene. But be prepared to take punishment if wrong.
Or if it says who they are last with, with 0 call outs of any kind, and you saw the same person fleeing the scene. That should be allowed, do any of you agree?
Hearing a battle right around a corner or inside a room next to you, upon entering the room and seeing dead bodies with no call outs, you should be able to assume the person left standing is a T, and have no need to give any warning before killing them. Simply because there were no call outs, that's their fault if they were innocent, and could fall under "confusion caused by T" in the end. (Kill from the grave!)
If you are reported for killing someone and you were correct, you must state very clearly in the report response - your entire logical process. Any holes in your story could/would most likely lead to you being slain. But if its a plausible explanation and the logs add up reasonably to what you've said, the report should most likely be settled with no slay.
More to be added as we discuss.
*Reasonable logic to be determined on a per-case basis based on the discretion of the staff online
What do you guys think so far? There's a lot more work that will need to be done, but this could be a start and I'm interested in seeing if you guys agree with what I've stated above, or what you would change. TTT is supposed to be a mystery solving game, and that fun vanishes when you can't even use information to piece things together, and instead, have to wait until you're being directly shot at or 1st hand witness someone killing someone else, not to mention it makes it way more 'run in gun hold M1' for T's, since they can get away without needing to hide bodies, burn them, or ANY of that. All the info but DNA is useless on bodies with the rules as they are now.
Sounds good to me. I'm pretty sure most of us veteran TTT players already use those sorts of tactics, its just we can't go through with them. It can be very obvious when someone is a traitor. This change could help make traitors more sneaky and focused on skullduggery, rather than just using their inventory to carry them.
Being able to talk your way out of a situation is fun too though, people shouldn't have just free reign to immediately kill you based on circumstantial evidence, unless they really do know its you. I guess it comes down to wit and charm eh.
01-23-2019, 03:57 PM (This post was last modified: 01-23-2019, 04:01 PM by Unpoke.)
(01-23-2019, 06:42 AM)Brassx Wrote:
Committing traitorous acts makes you kosable (Obvious right?)
Traitorous acts could include(but not limited to):
Walking through/BLATANTLY avoiding bear traps.
Blatantly fleeing the scene of an UNID'd body, or ignoring unid'd bodies. For instance, if someone is fleeing a room and you see a body in there, but saw no call outs between the two, you should be safe to kill said person. It's on them for not calling out the other person if they happened to be Innocent. If they did call it out and you missed it and kill them, you could take a slay. (Decided at staff discretion if reported)
Shooting at or near someone. This does Not include OBVIOUSLY shooting at a wall or consensual testing of weapons by shooting in legs.
Exploding explosive barrels near someone.
Planting C4 or remote bombs.
Having T weapons without calling our you have one from a dead traitor. Even using one from a dead traitor is a risk you have to take as an innocent.
Damaging or killing others, UNLESS for self-defense. However, it's a little hard to prove if self defense. Any thoughts?
A lot of these are already enforced (or should be). The only ones that aren't are the bear traps and the "BLATANTLY" fleeing the scene of an unid'd body to that level of vagueness. It's been enforced as "if there's no doubt that person saw the body, you can KOS them." I'm worried by the word blatant when it comes to that because people already kill for just about anything, and they will stretch that word as far as they can, especially if you're saying they don't even have to directly be seen in the same room here. With bear traps, as an innocent I've walked over plenty without ever having any clue they're there. They're invisible meant not to be seen, and they're buggy so not every innocent trips them off. It would kind've suck to be killed for that.
(01-23-2019, 06:42 AM)Brassx Wrote: Another thing is logical rules:
Reasonable* logic should be allowed, that is, figuring out who a T is without directly seeing the actions they comitted. To be decided on a per-case basis. This includes but is not limited to:
Using information on bodies or other situations(to be expanded on later) to form a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt, that a person is a T.
This is hard to pinpoint as it can be very situational and vary VASTLY depending on the situation and context, but for example, if you ID a body and it shows they died only a few seconds ago, but you saw someone fleeing the scene with the same weapon(with no other ways to escape), just before you found/saw the body. You should be able to piece together and rightfully KOS the person fleeing the scene. But be prepared to take punishment if wrong.
Or if it says who they are last with, with 0 call outs of any kind, and you saw the same person fleeing the scene. That should be allowed, do any of you agree?
Hearing a battle right around a corner or inside a room next to you, upon entering the room and seeing dead bodies with no call outs, you should be able to assume the person left standing is a T, and have no need to give any warning before killing them. Simply because there were no call outs, that's their fault if they were innocent, and could fall under "confusion caused by T" in the end. (Kill from the grave!)
If you are reported for killing someone and you were correct, you must state very clearly in the report response - your entire logical process. Any holes in your story could/would most likely lead to you being slain. But if its a plausible explanation and the logs add up reasonably to what you've said, the report should most likely be settled with no slay.
More to be added as we discuss.
*Reasonable logic to be determined on a per-case basis based on the discretion of the staff online
The first one (seeing a body very recently killed and a person fleeing from the body) is something I do support and has already been used, I've let it slide when I saw it because it makes it real obvious, but I'm glad it's in writing now. I don't really support the last person with because it's easy enough to just wear a disguiser, combined with our teleporting guns 'n' stuff somebody could just be looking at the wrong person and their round gets fucked for it. There's no way for staff to look at the information left on a body either, so we have to be careful with that kind've stuff, right now there's zero way to enforce that in our current report system. I guess we can kind've infer a little bit that it might be possible from the death scene, but that's not worth it at that point. If we get more specific damage logs and report system, that could maybe work. I do agree with the "battle around the corner" one, although I think it'll bring quite a few RDMs with people shooting before they read callouts. Those people will just have to be slain I guess, it would make the game a little less frustrating for innos.
Committing traitorous acts makes you kosable (Obvious right?)
Traitorous acts could include(but not limited to):
Walking through/BLATANTLY avoiding bear traps.
Blatantly fleeing the scene of an UNID'd body, or ignoring unid'd bodies. For instance, if someone is fleeing a room and you see a body in there, but saw no call outs between the two, you should be safe to kill said person. It's on them for not calling out the other person if they happened to be Innocent. If they did call it out and you missed it and kill them, you could take a slay. (Decided at staff discretion if reported)
Shooting at or near someone. This does Not include OBVIOUSLY shooting at a wall or consensual testing of weapons by shooting in legs.
Exploding explosive barrels near someone.
Planting C4 or remote bombs.
Having T weapons without calling our you have one from a dead traitor. Even using one from a dead traitor is a risk you have to take as an innocent.
Damaging or killing others, UNLESS for self-defense. However, it's a little hard to prove if self defense. Any thoughts?
A lot of these are already enforced (or should be). The only ones that aren't are the bear traps and the "BLATANTLY" fleeing the scene of an unid'd body to that level of vagueness. It's been enforced as "if there's no doubt that person saw the body, you can KOS them." I'm worried by the word blatant when it comes to that because people already kill for just about anything, and they will stretch that word as far as they can, especially if you're saying they don't even have to directly be seen in the same room here. With bear traps, as an innocent I've walked over plenty without ever having any clue they're there. They're invisible meant not to be seen, and they're buggy so not every innocent trips them off. It would kind've suck to be killed for that.
(01-23-2019, 06:42 AM)Brassx Wrote: Another thing is logical rules:
Reasonable* logic should be allowed, that is, figuring out who a T is without directly seeing the actions they comitted. To be decided on a per-case basis. This includes but is not limited to:
Using information on bodies or other situations(to be expanded on later) to form a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt, that a person is a T.
This is hard to pinpoint as it can be very situational and vary VASTLY depending on the situation and context, but for example, if you ID a body and it shows they died only a few seconds ago, but you saw someone fleeing the scene with the same weapon(with no other ways to escape), just before you found/saw the body. You should be able to piece together and rightfully KOS the person fleeing the scene. But be prepared to take punishment if wrong.
Or if it says who they are last with, with 0 call outs of any kind, and you saw the same person fleeing the scene. That should be allowed, do any of you agree?
Hearing a battle right around a corner or inside a room next to you, upon entering the room and seeing dead bodies with no call outs, you should be able to assume the person left standing is a T, and have no need to give any warning before killing them. Simply because there were no call outs, that's their fault if they were innocent, and could fall under "confusion caused by T" in the end. (Kill from the grave!)
If you are reported for killing someone and you were correct, you must state very clearly in the report response - your entire logical process. Any holes in your story could/would most likely lead to you being slain. But if its a plausible explanation and the logs add up reasonably to what you've said, the report should most likely be settled with no slay.
More to be added as we discuss.
*Reasonable logic to be determined on a per-case basis based on the discretion of the staff online
The first one (seeing a body very recently killed and a person fleeing from the body) is something I do support and has already been used, I've let it slide when I saw it because it makes it real obvious, but I'm glad it's in writing now. I don't really support the last person with because it's easy enough to just wear a disguiser, combined with our teleporting guns 'n' stuff somebody could just be looking at the wrong person and their round gets fucked for it. There's no way for staff to look at the information left on a body either, so we have to be careful with that kind've stuff, right now there's zero way to enforce that in our current report system. I guess we can kind've infer a little bit that it might be possible from the death scene, but that's not worth it at that point. If we get more specific damage logs and report system, that could maybe work. I do agree with the "battle around the corner" one, although I think it'll bring quite a few RDMs with people shooting before they read callouts. Those people will just have to be slain I guess, it would make the game a little less frustrating for innos.
Fair. But to be clear, I meant Last person with wouldn't be used alone, but maybe with a number of other factors. Time of death, weapon killed with, if you saw said person coming from that area legit like 2 seconds after the death time of the body, and didn't see ANY call outs or hear/see anything (in chat) related to a fight. That is very suspicious. If they were at the scene of the crime and didn't say anything about what happened, that should maybe be enough to kill them. It should be on said person for NOT saying anything about it, and they should have no rights to report anyone for killing them unless they clearly stated what happened and said person missed. It can fall under 'confusion from T's' if they were innocent. Know what I mean? Now if the person says what happened, they shouldn't be killed, or if you do kill them anyways you can take a slay.
That's the thing with logical rules, you can't really prove any of them with logs. It would have to be up to our staff to decide if the logic someone used is ok (if reported). There barely used to even be a damage logs system back in the day and logical rules were allowed. It's really up to staff. People can lie yes, which is partially why the rules have evolved to the way they are now, but it will be up to our staff members to decide if they feel the persons logic is plausible or a lie based on both sides of the report, this of course makes them have to ask a few more questions.
I should also add to the list, carrying unid'd bodies around, or clearly trying to hide/get rid of bodies should be under "Traitorous Acts".
It just sucks that TTT basically turned into a "I literally can't do anything unless someone is KOS'd or directly shoots me and I see their name" instead of a hectic, tense, panic-filled gamemode that it used to be. It's a big reason why T's don't use even half of the T weapons. They don't need to because they can get away with so much shit they shouldn't be able to.
01-23-2019, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 01-23-2019, 05:09 PM by Kuro.)
(01-23-2019, 06:42 AM)Brassx Wrote: I was thinking about how much you can get away with as a Traitor, and because of that a lot of T weapons are simply not utilized (Flaregun, decoy, etc).
I think we need a massive refactoring of some of our core rules (Kos off locations, sound, and other info).
Some rules I was thinking of refactoring/expanding upon is the Traitor baiting rule, and changing it into a "Committing Traitorous act = kosable" rule, as follows:
I was going to originally post on the other thread about this but a majority of the time the reason some T items are unused is because they are useless to spend a credit on.
Most people understand that DNA is already one of the most effective ways to find and kill someone, so a reasonable traitor wouldn't spend a credit on a decoy to divert a detective for a minute, they would just kill the detective and dispose of the scanner. That way you have two credits usable on something infinitely more valuable to help you win the round.
I feel like changing rules around won't affect "sweaty" play as much as you think it would and have some detrimental effects on newer people who would get absolutely destroyed by experienced people who can make the most use of the new ways to kill people. The older people are still skilled enough(or carried enough by inventory) to overcome any new rules and newer people would get shit on twice as hard.
(01-23-2019, 06:42 AM)Brassx Wrote:
Committing traitorous acts makes you kosable (Obvious right?)
Traitorous acts could include(but not limited to):
Walking through/BLATANTLY avoiding bear traps.
Blatantly fleeing the scene of an UNID'd body, or ignoring unid'd bodies. For instance, if someone is fleeing a room and you see a body in there, but saw no call outs between the two, you should be safe to kill said person. It's on them for not calling out the other person if they happened to be Innocent. If they did call it out and you missed it and kill them, you could take a slay. (Decided at staff discretion if reported)
Shooting at or near someone. This does Not include OBVIOUSLY shooting at a wall or consensual testing of weapons by shooting in legs.
Exploding explosive barrels near someone.
Planting C4 or remote bombs.
Having T weapons without calling our you have one from a dead traitor. Even using one from a dead traitor is a risk you have to take as an innocent.
Damaging or killing others, UNLESS for self-defense. However, it's a little hard to prove if self defense. Any thoughts?
I wanted to add to this and say that endangering anyone in any way should be KOSable and as long as a person has a right to kill if they do kill it should be considered RDM and warrant a slay if they are killed for it. Since you didn't include it how about we stop senseless killing over if someone is innocent or not and instead whether or not they had a reason to?
That *should* stop RDM trains from happening
01-23-2019, 05:15 PM (This post was last modified: 01-23-2019, 05:18 PM by Brassx.)
(01-23-2019, 05:07 PM)Kuro Wrote:
(01-23-2019, 06:42 AM)Brassx Wrote: I was thinking about how much you can get away with as a Traitor, and because of that a lot of T weapons are simply not utilized (Flaregun, decoy, etc).
I think we need a massive refactoring of some of our core rules (Kos off locations, sound, and other info).
Some rules I was thinking of refactoring/expanding upon is the Traitor baiting rule, and changing it into a "Committing Traitorous act = kosable" rule, as follows:
I was going to originally post on the other thread about this but a majority of the time the reason some T items are unused is because they are useless to spend a credit on.
Most people understand that DNA is already one of the most effective ways to find and kill someone, so a reasonable traitor wouldn't spend a credit on a decoy to divert a detective for a minute, they would just kill the detective and dispose of the scanner. That way you have two credits usable on something infinitely more valuable to help you win the round.
I feel like changing rules around won't affect "sweaty" play as much as you think it would and have some detrimental effects on newer people who would get absolutely destroyed by experienced people who can make the most use of the new ways to kill people. The older people are still skilled enough(or carried enough by inventory) to overcome any new rules and newer people would get shit on twice as hard.
(01-23-2019, 06:42 AM)Brassx Wrote:
Committing traitorous acts makes you kosable (Obvious right?)
Traitorous acts could include(but not limited to):
Walking through/BLATANTLY avoiding bear traps.
Blatantly fleeing the scene of an UNID'd body, or ignoring unid'd bodies. For instance, if someone is fleeing a room and you see a body in there, but saw no call outs between the two, you should be safe to kill said person. It's on them for not calling out the other person if they happened to be Innocent. If they did call it out and you missed it and kill them, you could take a slay. (Decided at staff discretion if reported)
Shooting at or near someone. This does Not include OBVIOUSLY shooting at a wall or consensual testing of weapons by shooting in legs.
Exploding explosive barrels near someone.
Planting C4 or remote bombs.
Having T weapons without calling our you have one from a dead traitor. Even using one from a dead traitor is a risk you have to take as an innocent.
Damaging or killing others, UNLESS for self-defense. However, it's a little hard to prove if self defense. Any thoughts?
I wanted to add to this and say that endangering anyone in any way should be KOSable and as long as a person has a right to kill if they do kill it should be considered RDM and warrant a slay if they are killed for it. Since you didn't include it how about we stop senseless killing over if someone is innocent or not and instead whether or not they had a reason to?
That *should* stop RDM trains from happening
Quote:I was going to originally post on the other thread about this but a majority of the time the reason some T items are unused is because they are useless to spend a credit on.
Most people understand that DNA is already one of the most effective ways to find and kill someone, so a reasonable traitor wouldn't spend a credit on a decoy to divert a detective for a minute, they would just kill the detective and dispose of the scanner. That way you have two credits usable on something infinitely more valuable to help you win the round.
Only because you can literally get away with killing a detective in most situations and not even have to hide the body or dispose of it. I'm sure you remember the times where that was actually NEEDED. No one bothers doing it because the rules support a playstyle where pretty much any info on bodies is ultimately useless to everyone but people who have DNA scanners, or unless you directly see it happen. You just said so yourself.
These old items were not always useless, and I've used them so much. You used to HAVE to be sneaky. You simply don't have to be like that anymore. Everyone used to use flareguns to burn bodies, it was a normal thing.
If anything, I think our current rules/mindsets hurt new players more than these new ones would (these new ones aren't new, they are rules from an older era of TTT), because most other servers allow more logical rules than we do. They come here, use logic, get slain for it and end up leaving most likely.
I'm not trying to stop the sweaty mindset, that's been a thing since before the term 'sweaty' was used to describe it. I'm trying to make the game more than 'sitting duck' simulator for innocents, and make traitors have to use more than blink + M1 to get away with stuff.
Definitely agree with all of these. There will for sure be some problems caused by this right off the bat but I think it would make an enjoyable change of gameplay. Yeah if you can logically reason out why you killed someone and its based upon sound logic it should be valid, and if you were wrong or is deemed insufficient reasoning by the staff, then its a slay. Sounds good to me.
(01-23-2019, 05:15 PM)Brassx Wrote: Only because you can literally get away with killing a detective in most situations and not even have to hide the body or dispose of it. I'm sure you remember the times where that was actually NEEDED. No one bothers doing it because the rules support a playstyle where pretty much any info on bodies is ultimately useless to everyone but people who have DNA scanners, or unless you directly see it happen. You just said so yourself.
These old items were not always useless, and I've used them so much. You used to HAVE to be sneaky. You simply don't have to be like that anymore. Everyone used to use flareguns to burn bodies, it was a normal thing.
If anything, I think our current rules/mindsets hurt new players more than these new ones would (these new ones aren't new, they are rules from an older era of TTT), because most other servers allow more logical rules than we do. They come here, use logic, get slain for it and end up leaving most likely.
I'm not trying to stop the sweaty mindset, that's been a thing since before the term 'sweaty' was used to describe it. I'm trying to make the game more than 'sitting duck' simulator for innocents, and make traitors have to use more than blink + M1 to get away with stuff.
To be honest being able to kill a detective and get away with it is more about skill/weapons than any rules making it so. Logically speaking the most simple and effective way for traitors to deal with any problem is killing it which aligns with the goal of eliminating all innocents.
You tend to die so fast that identifying a body makes you an easy target and even taking a second to consider the importance of some information on a body is a waste of time since you'd already be dead. In fact the only way I find it acceptable to make myself a target like that is if the traitors AREN'T doing their job and killing everyone at which point it's 2 minutes into one round and everyone already dead is shouting at a mod to warn the remaining T's for delaying.
That's genuinely TTT in 2018/19 exaggerated a bit.
Traitors dont use flare guns, they camp nearby bodies they killed and wait for the message that someone IDed it and kill them.
Flare guns tend to not get used since that's an easy way to give any innocents a big indicator that a traitor very close just lit a body on fire. It doesn't help that it takes 10 seconds for a body to disappear and leaves burn marks on the floor.
I could go on trying to explain each item and what people do or don't use them for but from what I understand it's not about the info on bodies usability or rules and more about a playerbase full of TTT veterans with years of playing and generally knowing the gamemode
(01-23-2019, 05:15 PM)Brassx Wrote: Only because you can literally get away with killing a detective in most situations and not even have to hide the body or dispose of it. I'm sure you remember the times where that was actually NEEDED. No one bothers doing it because the rules support a playstyle where pretty much any info on bodies is ultimately useless to everyone but people who have DNA scanners, or unless you directly see it happen. You just said so yourself.
These old items were not always useless, and I've used them so much. You used to HAVE to be sneaky. You simply don't have to be like that anymore. Everyone used to use flareguns to burn bodies, it was a normal thing.
If anything, I think our current rules/mindsets hurt new players more than these new ones would (these new ones aren't new, they are rules from an older era of TTT), because most other servers allow more logical rules than we do. They come here, use logic, get slain for it and end up leaving most likely.
I'm not trying to stop the sweaty mindset, that's been a thing since before the term 'sweaty' was used to describe it. I'm trying to make the game more than 'sitting duck' simulator for innocents, and make traitors have to use more than blink + M1 to get away with stuff.
To be honest being able to kill a detective and get away with it is more about skill/weapons than any rules making it so. Logically speaking the most simple and effective way for traitors to deal with any problem is killing it which aligns with the goal of eliminating all innocents.
Eh I disagree with that. I think its more that detectives are the only ones that are really allowed to do anything with the info left on bodies and if you kill a det and take the dna scanner, even if you leave the body with a minute of dna on it and someone sees you with the body 3 seconds after it happened, they can't do anything because innocents are worthless. It makes sense that detectives are bigger targets but on frg as a traitor if theres no detective you can basically get away with killing people without any discretion at all.
x5
x1
x1
