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Logic Killing for Bear Traps

#1
I AM THE MASTER OF FINDING BEAR TRAPS, NO ONE CAN TAKE THIS TITLE AWAY FROM ME. IF THERE IS A BEAR TRAP, I'LL FIND IT WHERE EVER IT IS ON THE MAP.

I get bear trapped a lot and when I get bear trapped, I usually shoot the person peaking out the corner. 100% of the time they're the T, but because of the rules I'm in the wrong. I've taken slays because of this. I've had folks go around an open bear trap and refuse to break it, cause they're the T. Then couldn't do anything to the T camping the bear trap.

I would argue if folks that wait for the bear trap to spring and peak the corner should be killable. Usually when folks put a bear trap, they're creating an area of denial. Folks past the bear trap are more likely to be T's cause they're protecting an area. I'm not going to shoot towards the area I just came in (Since that is where innocents are able to be hit from the trap), I'm going to shoot towards the area I'm going to (Cause the Ts are protecting that area).

What if that is an innocent peaking the second you just got bear trap? This has never, ever happened to me. However, I will coincide the fact if folks just place random bear traps and don't camp them, this would kill an innocent once a year.

What if innocents are past the bear trap area? They wouldn't want innocents past that point cause they don't want to get shot when they peak that corner.

I want some logic killing here, they shouldn't be able to dance around it like a fire and I'm unable to do anything cause of it. Bear traps have great hitboxes, TRUST ME I WOULD KNOW, I would argue that if they go through the bear trap they can be killed for it. Or if they actively go around a bear trap, hanging around it, and not destroying it when pointed out. I would like to kill for that.

Most, except the hitboxes, can be applied to barnacles too.
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#2
I just shoot people that run at me if I get trapped and accept the consequences. Its a part of my DNA, I get rushed, I shoot. Can't help it. Same for when someone jihads near me and I just instinctively hit my kill bind. Am I in the right for it? No, but I can't help it. Its just habitual. I do feel bad and routinely slay or compensate the person though.
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#3
i 100% agree with this. Its dumb to get stuck in a bear trap and wait for your death bc you cant kill the person running right at you as soon as you get trapped.
although i will say that i have killed an inno because of it before, but if that happens you should just take the slay, itll just be a risk you need to take.

but there definitely needs to be some logic allowed on it
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#4
uh-oh sweat squads gonna be mad about this one, seriously this is stupid and honestly stems from the problem of bear traps being a dumb item to begin with (just my opinion tho)
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#5
this isn’t logic killing it’s assumption killing
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#6
(01-12-2019, 01:13 AM)Alex Summers Wrote:  although i will say that i have killed an inno because of it before, but if that happens you should just take the slay, itll just be a risk you need to take.

See, it's this type of logic that makes logical rules hard to determine. The fact you killed an inno for it shows it's not really a reliable source of logic, but at the same time it makes you feel incredibly frustrated that you can't do anything but wait for death in that situation.

Walking through a bear trap and not triggering it is more acceptable. But killing someone for 'running at you' or 'looking at you' is much more questionable.


Quote:this isn’t logic killing it’s assumption killing

He's right. You're assuming too much in this situation.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for loosening up the rules, but we give an inch people take a mile, so it has to be done very cautiously. Last thing we want is for people to start killing others for just looking at them "HE AIMED AT MY HEAD SO I SHOT HIM".

I'd love to have a much more in depth discussion about logical killing and what should and shouldn't be allowed though. It's really rough to do because logical killing often has T's feel like they've been 'cheated' out of a round, and get super salty. That's why the rules and how they are taken have evolved over the years. Staff members trying to reduce the amount of salt, especially if someone makes a mistake and kills the wrong person based on logic. (Not to mention logic is different per person. Everyone has their own ideas on what 'logic' is)

I think the over all goal of said discussion should be to reduce tension and create a more relaxed TTT experience. If someone makes a mistake, you should often just let it go. RDM doesn't have to end in a slay every time, especially if it's a legit mistake.
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#7
What if we were to rework the bear trap, such as rather than dealing damage and making you a sitting duck while you waited for your death, it disarmed you for a few seconds and slowed you instead? Obviously it won't be that, it was just something that I thought of while typing this. My point is, currently it stops people from moving and gets most people into a "kill on sight" mode, where they shoot anyone running toward them. If we take away that ability to shoot on sight, but also made it so they weren't a -complete- target dummy, it would help the problem imo. ^-^
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#8
I like TTT but the thing that makes me lose interest the most honestly is how helpless you feel as an innocent, which basically leads to you running around waiting to be served a traitor to kill.  Even if you know basically 100% without doubt that someone is a traitor, half the time you can't kill them. And I'm not talking about hearing gunshots and knowing who has that gun. I'm talking about hearing gunshots right around a corner, hearing a head explode, turning the corner, seeing someone running away from an unidentified body in a one way hallway, and on top of that seeing that they have the gun which was used to kill the person and which were the sound of the gunshots, all within the span of less than 5 seconds. BUT because you didn't SEE IT, you can't kill them for it. I saw someone get slain for that recently and tbh I wouldn't have slain them.

Honestly I always liked my idea of being more loose with logic rules but still punishing for mistakes. For example if you make a kill of what you reason is logic, but happen to be wrong, take a slay for it, but if you were right and can lay out all the logical thinking and deduction skills in the report response then consider it a fair kill.
Of course that's just a really loose idea and it's a lot more complicated in reality to set rules around logic. Apparently a little while ago the rules based on logic were "loosened" a bit, but honestly it doesn't feel like it.  I don't know I just find the rules around killing traitors really 'unmotivating'

Yeah I know this thread is based on bear traps but I just wanted to rant about rules on logic.Angry
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#9
Honestly, These are the types of things why I'm not having as much fun as I think I am. Just tired of the eventual death I'll be dealt when I can't do much as an innocent. I liked when you could play with the traitors and saying "I dunno, this dead guy's last words are calling you suspicious." People's signature T items are also fun to tease certain people with, like alex and disguiser, Beebee with teleporters, Me with death stations.

And the fact that when I'm a T, there's some sweat kings that are trigger happy 24/7, kill you for anything, report and don't forgive for anything just to finish their scrolls, weapon levels, etc.

It seems like nowadays no one wants to play around and are only going for +1 on scrolls. I only want to get on when there's a low-medium amount of people on. I get why Catbug doesn't like full servers.
Godlikes: 44/58+(1+ Unknown)
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#10
(01-12-2019, 07:04 PM)TJ1524 Wrote:  Honestly, These are the types of things why I'm not having as much fun as I think I am. Just tired of the eventual death I'll be dealt when I can't do much as an innocent. I liked when you could play with the traitors and saying "I dunno, this dead guy's last words are calling you suspicious." People's signature T items are also fun to tease certain people with, like alex and disguiser, Beebee with teleporters, Me with death stations.

And the fact that when I'm a T, there's some sweat kings that are trigger happy 24/7, kill you for anything, report and don't forgive for anything just to finish their scrolls, weapon levels, etc.

It seems like nowadays no one wants to play around and are only going for +1 on scrolls. I only want to get on when there's a low-medium amount of people on. I get why Catbug doesn't like full servers.

See this is the issue:

Quote:Just tired of the eventual death I'll be dealt when I can't do much as an innocent.


Quote:And the fact that when I'm a T, there's some sweat kings that are trigger happy 24/7, kill you for anything, report and don't forgive for anything just to finish their scrolls, weapon levels, etc.


On one hand, people say they can't do ANYTHING. On the other, they say people kill for EVERYTHING. If we loosen the logical rules again, will it make those already trigger-happy players, even more so?



I also fully agree with Dread, I was saying this the other day in discord. I was so out of touch with how TTT is played today, I killed a guy, had 4 people behind me 'facing the other direction'. They turned around soon after the person died, but didn't KOS me because they didn't 'directly see it'. I was 100% expecting to die, yet I did not. I thought that was really absurd.


I definitely think some form of logic-rework needs to happen, we should maybe put faith in people to have BASIC logic, (i.e. thinking what exactly could happen that fast.). Person running from UNID'd body? You SHOULD be able to kos them in most situation, if no one was called out or nothing was said, etc. But context is really important when determining if logic is ok.

I feel like the gamemode in general simply stopped caring about ALL the info left on bodies. How long ago they died, what weapon, what they were typing, and who they were with last should all be able to be used in some logical form together. I'm not saying you can check for the weapon and KOS the first player you see using said weapon, but honestly what's the point of all this information when nothing is done with it anymore..

I remember way back, detectives were about more than just DNA, you'd review evidence on a body and based on the time of death, and everything else, you'd make some kind of logical decision, even use the visualizer! It was just part of the game, mistakes were just a normal part. As long as it didn't rely on too many assumptions, and wasn't at random, it wasn't a huge deal in the end.
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