From A guy who doesn't play much frg, but likes to keep tabs, because it constantly looks cool.
Random damage in a first person game is a huge No No to me and many others, and kinda turns me away from something I otherwise would instantly jump on. Anyone who has played morrowind will tell you that the combat in that game is really derpy due to it's hit / miss system. There is nothing more infuriating than when it feels like something you are doing doesn't have impact even if it's nothing of your own fault. Especially when you are in more moment to moment control than say a tactics game like say Xcom.
With xcom you have ways of tactically manipulating that outside of a static value by the use of abilities, positioning, and distance. However with this which already requires you to do several things at once ie moving and aiming you can't easily add complexity and depth to that and it also sounds like it's just a static value anyways.
It doesn't really add a meaningful mechanic and is just another thing added for another form of progression to make that static value lower. It doesn't make combat or gameplay more enjoyable in any way it's an arbitrary hurdle.
While that rule is true for a lot of things(especially 'skill based' PvP content), RNG can actually be okay to use in some PvE scenarios(I've enjoyed it quite a bit in some games). So in this type of scenario, Some random damage ranges should be perfectly fine with the way I plan to do it. I don't expect everyone to like it though - But, Look at Runescape, a MMORPG that's still alive to this day (came out in 2002). Has tens of thousands of active players. Its damage system is SUPER RNG, based on your characters stats vs your targets stats. Of course it can be pretty frustrating for PvP, but it still feels pretty good and works pretty great. Especially for progression and the amount of different character builds that became possible from it. The damage ranges here will not be NEAR as RNG based or varied as that.
Tons of games use randomized damage in one form or another(ever heard of critical hits? Stats are often there to increase your crit chances too).
Also I should clarify, it's pseudo random, not pure RNG. (google it if you're unsure what it is) The damage range also will not be anything extreme. The MAIN concept is lowering the initial damage value, and having the player increase that via leveling up (or 'training').
Think about it this way: Without a similar kind of player progression that has players start 'weak' and progress to be stronger, players can literally jump in with the best weapons they have at the moment, and just shred everything right out of the gate. That does not create any sense of progression if players are already 'end game'. This system is one way to solve this issue, and make balancing much easier.
Having damage stay completely static no matter what means there will be only be one type of progression, and this is progression we already have.. LOOT. Players do NOT start fresh on Realms, they have their existing items. Now If I make the damage stay a flat rate, and increase with stats, it's the same exact concept as what I'm doing now. With no progression, there's very little replay ability. No sense of achievement, no progression. Keep in mind GMOD has limited capabilities and not all internal functions for coding 'bots' are exposed. So when it comes to efficient nextbot coding; Creating super unique, smart, and 'fun' NPC's to fight is not a simple task, nor is it something I want for normal mobs.
In a typical RPG you start out weak and progress to be stronger. That's precisely what I want to achieve here, and the huge obstacle was allowing players to have their Inventories. In most games you start out with very little and gain more and more to help you, which adds another layer to progression. The same as leveling up your character.
Quote:However with this which already requires you to do several things at once ie moving and aiming you can't easily add complexity and depth to that and it also sounds like it's just a static value anyways.
It doesn't really add a meaningful mechanic and is just another thing added for another form of progression to make that static value lower. It doesn't make combat or gameplay more enjoyable in any way it's an arbitrary hurdle.
Well I'm not sure how random you think the damage is going to be, but like stated, having a damage amount that progresses as you level up your character adds a form a progression. What's wrong with that? That's the goal of it.
TL;DR:
Games need some form of progression that gives a sense of achievement. Most games do this by having players start with nothing, and start weak, then progress through, enhance their characters, and get better gear. We do not have the 'start with no gear' and work your way up option here(nor do we have the super fast paced dodge-block enemy fight option) for the most part as most players WILL already start with really good weapons. How would you add progression for those players? Replay value? Give something more interesting to work for other than grinding out loot? They can skip most of the stuff and go straight to 'end game'. R.I.P any sense of achievement other than 'loot'. This is not supposed to be a purely 'skill based' gamemode. It's not some super competitive FPS where any RNG damage could be life or death. Really, if you have any better ideas for that, I'm all ears.
Best I can say is just wait for the beta/release and try it out, then if you feel the same way, it will be much easier to have a proper discussion on it because you know more about the gamemode and have personally experienced it. I'm making something I myself would want to play, based on things I've grown up playing, not just something to please everyone. That being said nothing is set-in-stone and if enough people agree on something I will likely make some changes.
04-21-2017, 05:12 AM (This post was last modified: 04-21-2017, 05:17 AM by American Trail Mix.)
(04-09-2017, 11:33 AM)Brassx Wrote: While that rule is true for a lot of things(especially 'skill based' PvP content), RNG can actually be okay to use in some PvE scenarios(I've enjoyed it quite a bit in some games). So in this type of scenario, Some random damage ranges should be perfectly fine with the way I plan to do it. I don't expect everyone to like it though - But, Look at Runescape, a MMORPG that's still alive to this day (came out in 2002). Has tens of thousands of active players. Its damage system is SUPER RNG, based on your characters stats vs your targets stats. Of course it can be pretty frustrating for PvP, but it still feels pretty good and works pretty great. Especially for progression and the amount of different character builds that became possible from it. The damage ranges here will not be NEAR as RNG based or varied as that.
Tons of games use randomized damage in one form or another(ever heard of critical hits? Stats are often there to increase your crit chances too).
Games need some form of progression that gives a sense of achievement. Most games do this by having players start with nothing, and start weak, then progress through, enhance their characters, and get better gear. We do not have the 'start with no gear' and work your way up option here(nor do we have the super fast paced dodge-block enemy fight option) for the most part as most players WILL already start with really good weapons. How would you add progression for those players? Replay value? Give something more interesting to work for other than grinding out loot? They can skip most of the stuff and go straight to 'end game'. R.I.P any sense of achievement other than 'loot'. This is not supposed to be a purely 'skill based' gamemode. It's not some super competitive FPS where any RNG damage could be life or death. Really, if you have any better ideas for that, I'm all ears.
...Then why not a level and exp system? Why not have minimum damage caps on enemies, or a damage stat that makes you deal more damage, and have stronger, healthier enemies in different areas? As for loot, take a look at Dark Souls. There is no weapon in Dark Souls that is objectively better than another weapon; most weapons in Dark Souls are only strong because you MAKE them strong, by leveling up your character and upgrading them. You can do the same thing for Realms, too. Say there are like, "realm gems" or something that you can put on your weapons. These enhance a weapon's stats, but only while playing on Realms. This would be significantly more interesting than a random chance to deal 0 damage. If people don't like random critical hits, why would they like random critical fails? Once again, it's an unnecessary factor, and only makes progression more painful instead of more interesting. Also, continuing on the Dark Souls note, I find Skill over Strength to be an important concept to have. Make fights hard, but rewarding. Do NOT make it a grind-fest! I can guarantee that the majority of people who play TTT don't enjoy grinding for hours to increase their stats. Don't make a game that people would want to set up a bot to automate (Like what happens with Runescape.) If you really need help on game design and stuff, I can give my two cents on the matter whenever. [Also, I find Runescape to be an awful game, and it's age shows for a reason. This is just a personal opinion, but I would still like to point it out.]
(04-09-2017, 11:33 AM)Brassx Wrote: While that rule is true for a lot of things(especially 'skill based' PvP content), RNG can actually be okay to use in some PvE scenarios(I've enjoyed it quite a bit in some games). So in this type of scenario, Some random damage ranges should be perfectly fine with the way I plan to do it. I don't expect everyone to like it though - But, Look at Runescape, a MMORPG that's still alive to this day (came out in 2002). Has tens of thousands of active players. Its damage system is SUPER RNG, based on your characters stats vs your targets stats. Of course it can be pretty frustrating for PvP, but it still feels pretty good and works pretty great. Especially for progression and the amount of different character builds that became possible from it. The damage ranges here will not be NEAR as RNG based or varied as that.
Tons of games use randomized damage in one form or another(ever heard of critical hits? Stats are often there to increase your crit chances too).
Games need some form of progression that gives a sense of achievement. Most games do this by having players start with nothing, and start weak, then progress through, enhance their characters, and get better gear. We do not have the 'start with no gear' and work your way up option here(nor do we have the super fast paced dodge-block enemy fight option) for the most part as most players WILL already start with really good weapons. How would you add progression for those players? Replay value? Give something more interesting to work for other than grinding out loot? They can skip most of the stuff and go straight to 'end game'. R.I.P any sense of achievement other than 'loot'. This is not supposed to be a purely 'skill based' gamemode. It's not some super competitive FPS where any RNG damage could be life or death. Really, if you have any better ideas for that, I'm all ears.
...Then why not a level and exp system? Why not have minimum damage caps on enemies, or a damage stat that makes you deal more damage, and have stronger, healthier enemies in different areas? As for loot, take a look at Dark Souls. There is no weapon in Dark Souls that is objectively better than another weapon; most weapons in Dark Souls are only strong because you MAKE them strong, by leveling up your character and upgrading them. You can do the same thing for Realms, too. Say there are like, "realm gems" or something that you can put on your weapons. These enhance a weapon's stats, but only while playing on Realms. This would be significantly more interesting than a random chance to deal 0 damage. If people don't like random critical hits, why would they like random critical fails? Once again, it's an unnecessary factor, and only makes progression more painful instead of more interesting. Also, continuing on the Dark Souls note, I find Skill over Strength to be an important concept to have. Make fights hard, but rewarding. Do NOT make it a grind-fest! I can guarantee that the majority of people who play TTT don't enjoy grinding for hours to increase their stats. Don't make a game that people would want to set up a bot to automate (Like what happens with Runescape.) If you really need help on game design and stuff, I can give my two cents on the matter whenever. [Also, I find Runescape to be an awful game, and it's age shows for a reason. This is just a personal opinion, but I would still like to point it out.]
I think you're misinterpreting what the point of realms is. Realms is more or less a supplement to playing TTT, the main goal isn't to create a separate RPG that will essentially make FRG a two community monster. Realms is a server you can go to after TTT might become a little boring for that day, the two will play off each other. As you can see above, you use weapons that you've gotten from TTT so don't expect a lot of (if any) weapons that are are only obtainable and usable on realms. Same goes for a leveling system, don't expect much.
04-21-2017, 03:39 PM (This post was last modified: 04-21-2017, 03:51 PM by Brassx.)
(04-21-2017, 05:12 AM)American Trail Mix Wrote:
(04-09-2017, 11:33 AM)Brassx Wrote: While that rule is true for a lot of things(especially 'skill based' PvP content), RNG can actually be okay to use in some PvE scenarios(I've enjoyed it quite a bit in some games). So in this type of scenario, Some random damage ranges should be perfectly fine with the way I plan to do it. I don't expect everyone to like it though - But, Look at Runescape, a MMORPG that's still alive to this day (came out in 2002). Has tens of thousands of active players. Its damage system is SUPER RNG, based on your characters stats vs your targets stats. Of course it can be pretty frustrating for PvP, but it still feels pretty good and works pretty great. Especially for progression and the amount of different character builds that became possible from it. The damage ranges here will not be NEAR as RNG based or varied as that.
Tons of games use randomized damage in one form or another(ever heard of critical hits? Stats are often there to increase your crit chances too).
Games need some form of progression that gives a sense of achievement. Most games do this by having players start with nothing, and start weak, then progress through, enhance their characters, and get better gear. We do not have the 'start with no gear' and work your way up option here(nor do we have the super fast paced dodge-block enemy fight option) for the most part as most players WILL already start with really good weapons. How would you add progression for those players? Replay value? Give something more interesting to work for other than grinding out loot? They can skip most of the stuff and go straight to 'end game'. R.I.P any sense of achievement other than 'loot'. This is not supposed to be a purely 'skill based' gamemode. It's not some super competitive FPS where any RNG damage could be life or death. Really, if you have any better ideas for that, I'm all ears.
...Then why not a level and exp system? Why not have minimum damage caps on enemies, or a damage stat that makes you deal more damage, and have stronger, healthier enemies in different areas? As for loot, take a look at Dark Souls. There is no weapon in Dark Souls that is objectively better than another weapon; most weapons in Dark Souls are only strong because you MAKE them strong, by leveling up your character and upgrading them. You can do the same thing for Realms, too. Say there are like, "realm gems" or something that you can put on your weapons. These enhance a weapon's stats, but only while playing on Realms. This would be significantly more interesting than a random chance to deal 0 damage. If people don't like random critical hits, why would they like random critical fails? Once again, it's an unnecessary factor, and only makes progression more painful instead of more interesting. Also, continuing on the Dark Souls note, I find Skill over Strength to be an important concept to have. Make fights hard, but rewarding. Do NOT make it a grind-fest! I can guarantee that the majority of people who play TTT don't enjoy grinding for hours to increase their stats. Don't make a game that people would want to set up a bot to automate (Like what happens with Runescape.) If you really need help on game design and stuff, I can give my two cents on the matter whenever. [Also, I find Runescape to be an awful game, and it's age shows for a reason. This is just a personal opinion, but I would still like to point it out.]
We seem to be at a misunderstanding. You have a separate level/exp on realms, you use said AP to increase YOUR damage output in realms(meaning any weapon you use). The chance for an enemy to block is something that can be easily changed if needed, and not a major 'vision' I had for the gamemode, and not what I was referring to about RNG damage.
What you described first is basically what it is, but instead of just ONE damage number that you increase, think of a damage range that you increase(not 0 - max damage or anything like that, min - max), giving more chances for unique builds and concepts for party/group play. (DPS, Tanks, etc)
Quote:Moving on, Realms will have it's own Player Progression through what I'm calling "Combat Levels". Every Combat Level you gain you will gain "Player Level XP". Player Level is your current Level on TTT/Lobby/Survive, etc. Not only will you gain some Player Level XP, you will gain an attribute point.
So, when you slay an enemy in Realms, you gain Combat Experience, which in turn helps to level up your "Combat Level".
Once you have an Attribute Point ( AP ), you can then spend it on specific attributes for your player(will disclose attributes at a later date). These attributes will help you fully utilize your weapons, making it so you hit less zeros, have a more accurate damage range, longer fire range, etc. As well as give an entirely new progression aspect to give people something to work for. Not to mention it helps make it so veteran players with lots of really good items can't jump in and just destroy all the mobs with ease. You have to work for it no matter what weapons you start with!
Reading it now, perhaps I should've worded that differently.
Here's more or less what I meant:
Realms will have its own Player Progression through what I'm calling "Combat Levels". Every Combat Level you gain you will gain "Player Level XP". Player Level is your current Level on TTT/Lobby/Survive, etc. Not only will you gain some Player Level XP, you will gain an attribute point.
So, when you slay an enemy in Realms, you gain Combat Experience, which in turn helps to level up your "Combat Level".
Once you have an Attribute Point ( AP ), you can then spend it on specific attributes for your player(will disclose more attributes at a later date). These attributes will help YOU become more powerful, relying on your weapons core stats + your player stats, meaning you can always make any weapon more powerful in realms. You will also possibly have a more accurate damage range attribute, longer max shot range attribute, etc.
No matter what weapons you start with, you will still need to 'train' to fight enemies of higher levels. Meaning they get stronger as you go to the tougher areas on the map, thus you will NEED to be a higher level. Having good weapons DOES help, but imagine in a RPG where the damage you deal is mostly reliant on your player stats, and not entirely the weapon you're wielding, but if you want to min/max, having the best weapon for the job helps. That's the core concept.
Grinding is something that players are going to need to do( It's not really going to be HOURS upon HOURS just to level up), its a natural part of games like this.. Sure not everyone wants to grind, but that's fine. It's not for you.
There's a lot of kids these days who want things just handed to them, and this is not for them.
I always accept feedback, however, it's still too early to say if anything major needs to be changed. Give the gamemode a shot when it's out and post feedback after; It makes the process a lot easier.
04-22-2017, 06:15 AM (This post was last modified: 04-22-2017, 06:16 AM by Bathory (She/They).)
Baddies dont understand that if the mobs are getting tougher i wanna do more damage. stats are needed. its simple rpg progression.
Brass go full otaku, kick players for a time limit after they die (assuming we dont drop loot on death)
"Closest thing I have had to alcohol is chocolate milk... Don't quote me on that!"
"Please somebody use this as a signature to remember this day."-Catbug
Another problem I realized with Realms being a grindy thing is that if you make it very grindy, people will spend more time on it, which means they'll be spending less time playing TTT, which is exactly what we don't want.
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